Trombones are not Tinkertoys or Lego blocks.

[bloke]

Just because someone may have (finally) gathered up all the needed parts (which has become more and more of a challenge (with year-long delivery timelines of requested parts having become somewhat routine - and absolutely by design from German-to-Chinese-to-American-to-Japanese) doesn't mean that "Now, all they have to do is stick 'em together".

(This has to do with removing a trashed aluminum "axial flow" valve, converting the instrument to a non-F-attachment trombone (and doing so somewhat cleverly, so as to avoid purchasing any parts) and then having the owner of the instrument (since I left the gooseneck-removable brace system in place) ask if I wouldn't mind adding on to the job and fitting a standard "open wrap" (detachable) F attachment as an option, as well.

Between stuff I found laying around here, some stuff that the owner had, and five purchased parts (one of the five - sent from C-S - being the wrong part, but I went ahead and altered the wrong part to look correct/oem), everything is now here to grant the customer's wish...but just "sticking everything together" could easily result in a pile of crap - which would all need to be taken down and redone. I'm not much on "doing it twice, to make it nice". me...?? I'm a "one-and-done-er" (ie. Just as when I might rarely "build" myself an instrument - y'all may have noticed, I'm NOT putting something together, later seeing that I overlooked some important issue, tearing it back down, and then doing it again.) I don't hate this work, but I don't like it enough to work for half price...so I'm putting off building this up until I have just a wee bit more information (some of which includes customer's tastes - even including things like "how far from the bell rim does this customer prefer for a playing slide to be spaced away"...and EVEN doing this twice can define pulling a bunch of stuff all apart and putting it all back together again).

OK...
I'll leave this for now, and come back to it later...

bloke "yes...I do quite a bit of trombone work...I must have some peeps fooled into thinking that I know what I'm doing...and no, this is a totally different instrument from the one referred to in the diagram/drawing I posted the other day...and there are more awaiting my attention...including a mind-boggling linkage upgrade - and even more challenging repairs - for an obsolete and (arguably) not-the-best-made USA make of dependent-system bass trombone...oh yeah, and I need some elves to come in and completely polish a 186 (which I built from attic parts - so I can shoot lacquer on it, deliver it, fulfill an order, pass GO, and collect $XXXX."

[BRS]

.

[bloke]

Yeah. I certainly don't advertise trombone slide work but I sure did a lot of it.

This one is mostly bell section take apart stuff - as gone over above, but now they're bringing one of their spare slides to add to the job some more, to see if the spare can be upgraded to a primary.

There are a good person, and they hire me for a lot of playing jobs...

[Schlitzz]

Trombones are tinker toys. I have several Bach Fiddy’s outfitted with various valves, wraps, CF bells, and a CF outer slide, on a a Bach length Shires HS. I can do this because I don’t own a viola, or a banjo.

[bloke]

Trombones are tinker toys. I have several Bach Fiddy’s outfitted with various valves, wraps, CF bells, and a CF outer slide, on a a Bach length Shires HS. I can do this because I don’t own a viola, or a banjo.

ok...yes...

They are AFTER someone sticks all the parts together (which could otherwise be stuck on all sorts of non-fitting, non-aligning, and other dysfunctional ways), but - in the building of them - they certainly don't assemble that easily.

THAT HAVING BEEN SAID...

When looking at $5000 trombones - and then at taking a look at $5000 tubas - when someone complains about the "build quality" and "playing characteristics" of some particular $5000 tuba, I tend to chuckle. (ie. what they hell should anyone expect out of a - year 2020 value of money - $2200 tuba?)

[Schlitzz]

Yeah, I’ll continue to tinker with my Fiddy’s and possibly a 3/4 BBb with a CF bell. Rotaries, or pistons?

Still cheaper than screwing around with a viola.

Don’t you have some Perry Mason episodes to watch, or cut the grass with the casement AC off?

Keep calm, assemble some horns with replacement service parts, talk clients out sending their kids to Blue Lake, and scrap a few worn out violas in the chipper.

It’s just not that hard…..

[bloke]

' need to tread lightly...This trombonist's wife is a violist, and they book many of the freelance gigs, around here.

(I'm not sure that I would be doing this trombone "thang" were this not the case.)

[BRS]

.

[Schlitzz]

' need to tread lightly...This trombonist's wife is a violist, and they book many of the freelance gigs, around here.

(I'm not sure that I would be doing this trombone "thang" were this not the case.)

Now that we have more of the story, said violist is a DOer and not a floater, as the common stereotype goes. The money paid out to you for those trombone modifications, comes from her. This a very practical woman, seeing opportunities for independent employment, setting her own schedule, as a viola player. A similar example up north of Kitsapalacchia, has a couple, a trumpet player and a flute/violin/piano/viola player. The better half, not the trumpet player, has a day job as the county library administrator. You may wanna start having preauthorization discussions, before her other half buys more wonk stuff on eBay, to put on his horns.

[bloke]

This trombone began it's live as a standard wrap F attachment trombone, was sent out of town (years ago, but - sure - my reaction was "WTF") to have an axial flow valve put on it, (per often) the titanium wore off the aluminum, lime rotted the rotor stem off, I saved it (lasted several years longer) with a 3mm threaded pin (from the stem down into the body, clocked properly and industrial epoxied), a replacement rotor body was ordered by the owner (wrong axial flow valve manufacturer) which didn't fit, the instrument was set aside, finally (last year) I was asked to make it into a no-F-attachment instrument (which I did, and - via ingenuity - without buying nor supplying any parts), which prompted them to get excited (again) about finding some sort of F attachment for it and - once again - getting "hyped" by people, to which I told them that I would ONLY install an open-wrap oem F attachment (though I WOULD agree to do it with the same - out-of-town installed, remember? - detachable bracing system)...and I managed to fine a really good condition one for them cheep (maybe...? from Joel Bristor...) ...but (covid/Conn-Selmer production issues) it took me about a YEAR to get parts (robbed from that factory F attachment to put on someone's else subsequent tricked-out F attachment...but FINALLY...OK: DONE (pictures) other than having to fit the new stop arm to the rotor (too tight).

In the meantime, I'm now fixing up a spare 42 slide, removing dents from a 36BO bell, and (with the OTHER part of the bell section from the FIRST paragraph) changing the spacing (between the bell rim and the playing slide) from "old style to "(wider spacing) "new style"... (remember...??) I'm dealing with this same detachable bracing system.

...and my problem is that - even though I'm forced to deal with the first (axial flow valve...remember...??) poorly-positioned detachable bracing system, over-and-over, I am still picky enough to make the thing all fit together AS IF nothing WERE detachable (including the same relationship of the F attachment tubes to the bell, the same tilt of the rotor body, the same relationship between the trigger and the main cross-brace, the specific playing-slide-to-bell-rim spacing the customer requests (etc., etc., etc...)

Also (to prevent more delays), I'm having to scrounge through MY leftover parts and the CUSTOMER'S leftover parts (from past endeavors), as there are actually several OTHER parts that were needed to realize the F attachment version of this bell section.

bloke "I feel like a contractor or a landscaping company with one of these 'endless job' types of situations...and yes: I know I will get paid, but - still - I have other $h!t that I really need to be doing."








I'm probably heading back out there to fit that stop arm to the rotor stem, add the linkage spring, do a little buffing here and there, and shoot a little bit of rattle-can lacquer.

[bloke]

My recommendation:
DO NOT BUY those Bach linkage conversion kits.

This one:
BOTH links were seized (and are no-name)...so I had to look in the junk drawer and swap them out for Jinbao (I was NOT willing to "spend" two of my German ones on this project. btw...Its absolutely silent...the quietest Bach valve I've ever had in the shop.)
The adjustable action rod is loose/rattly and both threads are r.h., so it has to be taken all apart to be adjusted.
The stop arm hole is TOO SMALL for legacy Bach rotor stems.
nearly 100% useless p.o.s.

OK...
gold-brass Bach 42 bell
- now has both an open-wrap F attachment AND a "straight" (actually curved) no-f-attachment gooseneck...The main slide slides perfectly in both

yellow brass Bach 42 bell:
All the same parts bolt up to it as well, including an ADDITIONAL "straight" gooseneck which I put together with a zig-zag cross-brace (eliminating the need for one of those aftermarket "thumb-hooky" things.


solid (factory oem) Bach 36BO:
Someone did a $h!t job of removing bell dents...It's all smooth (and without scratching lacquer)

someone attempted to repair a damaged 42 playing slide:
- was still twisted (now coplanar)
- dent in 7th was only partially removed (now: undetectable)
- dent in inner slide (not removed was rubbing (now: removed, and rounded)
- typical lime deposits down in 1st/2nd position area inside the outer slide (dissolved and polished/cleaned)


so - suddenly this person (full-time pro who plays Bach) has - de facto - TWO MORE 42's and their 36 no longer looks like crap.

I'm not proud that it took 9 hours, but (maybe...??) I took too many breaks... (I AM old, you know...)

[bone-a-phone]

Bach linkages have always been loud. And something I could never figure out has been people's fascination with the mechanical linkages and preference over string linkage. Strings can be adjusted with 0 backlash/play in the lever. They are absolutely silent and smooth. Never require lube. Replace them yourself every 10 years with stuff you might have around the house (I use fly line backing).

I've never seen a tuba with string linkages.

[arpthark]

Bach linkages have always been loud. And something I could never figure out has been people's fascination with the mechanical linkages and preference over string linkage. Strings can be adjusted with 0 backlash/play in the lever. They are absolutely silent and smooth. Never require lube. Replace them yourself every 10 years with stuff you might have around the house (I use fly line backing).

I've never seen a tuba with string linkages.

Tuba string linkage fell out of favor about a century ago. Old King rotary basses and some European horns intended for the American market had string links. My old Kruspe tuba had them, too.


I also like string linkage in trombones.

[Schlitzz]

I'm not proud that it took 9 hours, but (maybe...??) I took too many breaks... (I AM old, you know...)

You're simply not charging enough. The proper lubrication of moving parts, is essential to optimal operation. The nurse is gonna flag you for dehydration.

[bloke]

I usually charge more, and particularly when I have to wait 45 days to get paid, as well as pick stuff up, write up quotes, and deliver it back. I'm on the clock for all of that.

I was surprised that this was my friend's only 42 slide, and it's no wonder that they've been using a 45 slide, based on the condition that this one was in. The 45 slide also explains why they've been sounding a little bit different. They've also been using their 36 a whole bunch. Again, the condition of this 42 slide explains that as well. Suddenly, they have a bunch more trombones (that they can stick together from now-modular parts) and play.

[Schlitzz]

I usually charge more, and particularly when I have to wait 45 days to get paid, as well as pick stuff up, write up quotes, and deliver it back. I'm on the clock for all of that.

So the gig money from them, the trombone playing stuff, and another 45 days to get paid?

[bloke]

I usually charge more, and particularly when I have to wait 45 days to get paid, as well as pick stuff up, write up quotes, and deliver it back. I'm on the clock for all of that.

So the gig money from them, the trombone playing stuff, and another 45 days to get paid?

no...They paid me on the spot, and more than you would likely guess (xxxx).
I was referring to SCHOOL SYSTEMS' payment terms.
I charge for the hours picking up stuff, the hours delivering stuff, the time it takes to write up a formal quote, and the 1-1/2 months that they are using my labor without paying for it.

ALL OF THESE trombone repairs were drawn out over a very long time, due to me scrounging for (low cost) parts for my friend...but HAD I KNOWN that they didn't even have a decent 42 slide (yet with a couple of 42 bells, no other 42 slide - other than the one I just repaired - and only a 45 slide to use with them), I would have - at least - strongly suggested that they bring that over months ago (as those repairs took less than an hour, and required no parts). The scrounging helped out my friend, but it also helped me - as most of what I was paid for the repair went to me, rather than to me buying parts.

In a week and a half, my friend will be handing me a check (for about the same $'s as the repair) for an annual Peter Cottontail gig...and it's always the same tunes, so - very little prep involved. This week - thanks to them (though they didn't directly book me for the gig) - I'm hooked up with another (pretty low pressure) gig that also pays around the same (though more hours)...

...so - with this person - I try to make considerations. Being my own boss, I'm not required to get anyone's OK...

...but - to the side topic - the money we are receiving for doing work - these days - isn't worth anything, every month it's worth considerably less, and - walking into supermarkets - all of the lowest-cost (particularly protein/fat-based) foods are being hoarded by everyone - leaving only the $25/lb. foods (etc.) This is quickly becoming a Weimar Republic type of situation.

time spent on this combined array of jobs for my friend..??
I could have stuck all of this stuff together (finally having all the parts needed) in less time. but (likely) the same single main tuning slide wouldn't have fit two bells and two configurations of each of those bells perfectly (one-handed effortless insertion/removal) - as it does...and they probably wouldn't have told me, "This is the quietest valve on any trombone I've ever owned"...Also (yep), I'm getting older. Experience speeds me way up, but "old" sorta slows me down.

>>>> Mostly, this thread is just a rant out of frustration...no big deal...