Guitar question

[MN_TimTuba]

I have an acoustic 12 string, would like to have it amplified at times. My dad had a removable unit for his Gibson Country and Western where the pickups were mounted on a wooden plate that slipped in and spanned the sound hole. He liked this because he could remove it when not needed.
Have you had good experience with this type, or can you recommend a better option? This is a not-collectable guitar, I'm not concerned about keeping it factory stock.
Thanks, much.
Tim

[Stauff]

I’ve had good results with the Seymour Duncan models. One is single coil, the other a humbucking design. Easy to slip in under the strings to mount. Retail stores that have them in stock will usually allow you to compare both in the store.

[TxTx]

I have a Martin D-16 that I had a Fishman under-saddle piezoelectric pickup installed in years ago. I gig with it about once a month and it’s been no trouble at all. It is active and takes a 9V battery which I replace about once a year. I think they give more of an acoustic guitar sound than the electric guitar soundhole type pickups. Of course it depends on what sort of sound you are after.

The only non-reversible aspect of its installation is the end pin hole needs to be bored a little bigger. I also have a Taylor 12 string with a similar pickup in it from the factory. This link is to wgat seems to be the modern equivalent to what I have. They also make a passive version if you want to use an external pre-amp.

https://www.fishman.com/portfolio/ellip ... mp-system/

Fishman also makes a wide variety of soundhole pickups too.

Eric

[donn]

Fishman under-saddle piezoelectric pickup

That seems like the obvious choice. 6-string guitars are occasionally equipped with magnetic pickups, for example that seems to be common with the old archtop style, but an acoustic pickup probably better suited to the way people normally play 12-strings. Mine is on a nylon string guitar, where it's obviously the only way, and I do have a gizmo to be popped into the soundhole: a mute. Just a round foam pad, to keep the string noise separate from the soundboard resonance, which is the actual sound source on a guitar. That's kind of a key distinction: the acoustic pickup takes the sound from the sound generator - the soundboard - and the strings are just noise.

The magnetic pickup takes the sound from the strings, in a sense making the guitar into a different instrument where the soundboard is irrelevant, and in fact kind of a liability -- in very loud amplified environments, the soundboard can receive as well as transmit, creating feedback and other unwanted phenomena. I don't know if acoustic pickups are any better at that - probably not, and maybe my sound hole plug also serves that purpose.

The two Fishmans I have seem fine (guitar and acoustic bass guitar.) I don't know where they're actually mounted - came that way from the factory, haven't tried to peek inside. Signal is much stronger than the magnetic instruments, in my experience - not citing that as a virtue, just something to deal with if you have different sources plugged into the same amplifier.

[iiipopes]

Long post from a guy who has played guitar since 1975, almost fifty years, including all sorts of generations of acoustic guitar pickups.

Current standard technology is to install a piezo bar underneath the bridge saddle. On one of my acoustic guitars that did not have a system when first purchased, I did just that: made sure the bottom of the channel was flat, drilled the little hole at the end of the bridge saddle channel, installed the saddle pickup, installed the controls on the side of the upper bout, and installed a battery box. Yes, I laid the template on the side of the upper bout and hand cut it out myself with a tool that was essentially a sabre saw blade installed in a small wood handle. You can't tell the guitar came any other way. Yes, it is invasive. but the upside is that: 1) you have good tone 2) you don't have to always be removing/reinstalling any other pickup system and risk fouling up either the system or the guitar, 3) it is plug-and-play with immediate control of the tone and volume on the guitar, and 4) you are not limited in your choice of strings as you are with "electric" pickups. The battery box needs to be accessible from the outside instead of the prior standard of a little pouch affixed to the inside of the heel block, so you don't have to loosen strings every time you change a battery. That may be especially important on a 12-string due to the added tension and the inherent flexing of the neck every time a battery is changed. Best of all, a good setup does not affect the tone of the guitar when played acoustically.

I have played both the Fishman and the L.R. Baggs on stage with different guitars, both to good effect. The system I installed is a Fishman. My Gibson J-45 came stock with an L.R. Baggs. My Ibanez 12-string came with its own version stock, and it is alright. These systems are so much easier than they were a generation ago because of the plug-and-play aspect once installed, and some even have built-in tuners. I recommend a system like that, with a built-in tuner, highly for an acoustic 12-string, as on my Ibanez, for obvious reasons.

If the stage volume gets up there in level, you might need a rubber soundhole plug to reduce feedback. I have one for each of my acoustic guitars that I keep in their respective cases.

Fishman & L.R. Baggs are the best piezo systems for straightforward saddle pickups. There are some piezos wired directly to an output jack, but unless you have a separate external preamp, you do need an on-board pre-amp with a piezo due to the ultra-high impedance and low output of the crystal. L.R. Baggs makes a control unit that mounts in the soundhole. That sounds inviting, but I don't like this type of control because you are still fiddling with the soundhole, still have to figure out the battery, and a soundhole control precludes using a soundhole plug onstage unless you modify it for access, which defeats the purpose.

If you want a removable pickup like the OP's father had, There are several soundhole pickups now available from various manufacturers, including Seymour Duncan, DiMarzio, and Fishman, among others. The Fishman pickups are semi-permanent, having set screws to secure the pickup in the soundhole. This defeats the purpose of having it removable, although they are so slender that sound is not significantly compromised. Just like any other "electric" pickup, I recommend a humbucking version for the lower noise floor. Moreover, since they are essentially electric guitar pickups, you might have to use "electric" strings instead of your favorite bronze. Martin Monel strings would work well for this setup.

Other systems: on the low-cost end, stick-on piezo pickup "dots" still have their advocates, but there are much better systems out there. You don't want the adhesive to let go in the middle of a gig. If you want to get high-cost esoteric, there are systems that actually mount a condenser microphone inside the guitar, or a combination of pickup & microphone, claiming a more "natural" sound.

Sweetwater has one of the most extensive selections of acoustic guitar pickups:
https://www.sweetwater.com/c985--Acoust ... ups?pn=all
and
Here is a review of various pickup system types on Reverb:
https://reverb.com/guide/buying-guide-acoustic-pickups

If you don't want to install it yourself, find a good acoustic guitar shop that has a good luthier who will install it as part of the purchase price.

Of course, for "natural" sound, nothing beats a Sennheiser professional external condenser microphone, but unless you are in a studio, it is overkill. The few times I played this setup, the sound engineer took more time to place the microphone than the time it took laying down the track, and I was tense about moving the guitar even the slightest little bit off-axis and ruining the track.

Bottom line: unless your guitar is a collectible, like, say, a pre-war Martin, and if you are a plug-and-play guy, I recommend for 99% of players, including all occasional players, install either a Fishman or an L.R. Baggs system for their overall tone and ease of use.

[iiipopes]

I forgot to say first and foremost to make sure the guitar, being a 12-string with the added tension of the strings, is structurally sound so installation of the pickup is straightforward. The guitar on which I installed the pickup system first had to have the plate under the bridge redone because it was coming loose, which I had a luthier do the work properly.

[bloke]

Traditional magnetic pickups are far less likely to feed back, don't require being pre-amped, and can be secured across the sound hole, yet (previous post) don't seem to be preferred...Well (unlike what many solid-body electric guitar players believe about about ash vs. maple, vs. whatever...and tuba players believe about "how much mass or what type of metal a mouthpiece is made of) the traditional magnetic pickups really only pick up the strings' vibration, and not any of an (acoustic/hollow) guitar's own resonance.

When I had a "stick" (upright) bass, I added a magnetic pick-up to the instrument's own (not-an-old-fashioned magnetic) pickup, and mixed the two on back of the instrument (a bloke add-on). When I was forced to have my own amp too near my bass, I had the option of turning off the instrument's own pickup...EVEN THOUGH it was FAR less likely to feed back than an acoustic bass or acoustic guitar, as it was solid.

[iiipopes]

Traditional magnetic pickups are far less likely to feed back, don't require being pre-amped, and can be secured across the sound hole, yet (previous post) don't seem to be preferred...Well (unlike what many solid-body electric guitar players believe about about ash vs. maple, vs. whatever...and tuba players believe about "how much mass or what type of metal a mouthpiece is made of) the traditional magnetic pickups really only pick up the strings' vibration, and not any of an (acoustic/hollow) guitar's own resonance.

When I had a "stick" (upright) bass, I added a magnetic pick-up to the instrument's own (not-an-old-fashioned magnetic) pickup, and mixed the two on back of the instrument (a bloke add-on). When I was forced to have my own amp too near my bass, I had the option of turning off the instrument's own pickup...EVEN THOUGH it was FAR less likely to feed back than an acoustic bass or acoustic guitar, as it was solid.

The only reason a magnetic sound hole insert pickup is less likely to feed back is because the pickup occludes most of the sound hole, just like a sound hole stopper does, and/or either the flanges or if it is a model like the Fishman which is clamped in with a set screw, damping the top vibrations.

[bloke]

It's okay for you to think that.

[donn]

To be fair, there is such a thing as feedback even when you have magnetic pickups. I don't think it's entirely a myth that real hollow body instruments like my Gretsch are a little more susceptible. (Real = strings resting on the bridge, not attached, bridge resting on the soundboard, and soundboard suspended from one end to the other. A block of wood inside, under the bridge = not real hollow body.)

But it's a matter of degree. Obviously, if feedback means air vibrations cycling back to the tone signal, those air vibrations are going to be transmitted through the soundboard if there is one, and a contact microphone attached to the soundboard is going to be a lot more sensitive to that.

But I imagine feedback isn't at the top of the issues around amplifying a 12 string.

[iiipopes]

It's okay for you to think that.

Think? Please respect my 49+ years of playing experience from which my observations and conclusions are derived.

[TxTx]

But I imagine feedback isn't at the top of the issues around amplifying a 12 string.

It depends on the stage and venue volume. There’s totally a feedback loop present from speaker to air to guitar top to stings with either kindof pickup. Most of our shows we do our own sound and keep our volume pretty reasonable, but I have feedback into the guitar often enough that I always drape the strap across the strings to damp that out. It usually takes a while to build tho. But some of the shows we’ve played with other folks doing sound it comes on about as fast as if you’ve plucked the string.

[bloke]

It's okay for you to think that.

Think? Please respect my 49+ years of playing experience from which my observations and conclusions are derived.

One good troll deserves another.
We trolls never forget.
Please, respect my ability to troll, as I've been on the internet for over thirty years, and have played various styles of guitar and guitars since 1965...from the Monkees to Fernando Sor...

... and sure it's possible to get feedback with a magnetic pickup. Guitar feedback and distortion have been integral parts of guitar music since years and years before Jimi Hendrix. Some people think that John Lennon's use of it in 1964 on the song "I Feel Fine" was first use of recorded feedback, but actually Johnny Watson used it intentionally quite a few years earlier. It's just that bringing it about with with magnetic pickups is a bit more of a deliberate effort versus somewhat of an unpredictable (if not more likely) one with contact pickups... but the trade-off is as I claimed: Magnetic pickups don't deliver much of the acoustic sound of a guitar, assuming a guitar/bass/etc. features a hollow resonance cavity.
I've already explained why I had both types on my stick bass, and no one wants to read that again.

[MN_TimTuba]

Thank you to all who replied with useful information. I believe I can make a suitable purchase now.
I appreciate your combined experience and insight!
Tim

[bloke]

If you put a magnetic on your sound hole and one of those contact pickup strips underneath your bridge ivory, run them both to a double knob thing somewhere on your guitar which features both a balance knob and a volume knob, and then get one of those quarter inch combination phone jack and guitar strap things in the bottom, you'll have tons of options.

[MN_TimTuba]

Thank you.
You're telling me how to soup up my Road Runner for drag racing. I just need to change the wiper blades on my Valiant.
But, naturally, I appreciate it.
Tim

[bloke]

If you're interested in "instant pickup", those round stick-ons aren't terrible.

[TxTx]

If you're interested in "instant pickup", those round stick-ons aren't terrible.

Think most of the stickons, and some of the built-in ones, are passive piezo electric pickups. Depending on what you are plugging into you may need a preamp. Basically whatever you are plugging into will need to have a very high input impedance - usually around 10 Mohms or so - to work well with the piezo directly.

Two that I use:

LR Baggs Para Acoustic DI - pricey but really flexible in that it can be 9V or phantom powered, can connect to a mic or line input, has an effects loop, and eq.

Triton Audio Bigamp Piezo - totally the opposite of the Bags - no battery, no knobs, no eq - it just plugs into a mic cable and uses phantom power. But if you do all the other stuff in the PA it is all you need. And they are about 1/3 the cost.

You of course don’t need either if the amp is compatible - I have a Fishman Loudbox that I can just plug passive piezos into.

You also don’t need either with an active piezo (one with an on board pre-amp) or the magnetic ones.

[bloke]

Yeah, all of my own amplifiers are too old to have built-in pre-amplification - and I'm not interested in buying any new amps myself, but it's not that uncommon for newer ones and even some of the cheaper newer ones to have this feature.

Decades ago, I remember one particular round stick on that I put on my classic guitar that plugged straight into my amp with a quarter inch phone jack and worked just fine. I don't know anything about brands or features, and would only investigate were I a potential consumer today.

[Charlie C Chowder]

So what kind of amp are you going to use with your acoustic guitar?

CCC