My Holton 345

[the elephant]

A few of you here have been folowing my on-again, off-again 6th valve project for this huge CC tuba.

Due to my love for the 6th valve that I added to my F tuba, and the way of thinking about its utility ($1 to @bloke) that caused me to want to add it in the first place, I have had one of those "Why not?" moments with my Holton.

There is barely room for it, and setting up a logial linkage system will take some head scratching to work out, but I am ready to do this interesting modification. The valve and its slide circuit have been built. I have a very good connection system to the bugle that will allow me to remove the 5th/6th valve system altogether when I do not need it, and if I want to spend the money on the needed components I can even make a completely new 5th valve section as I have now, so that I can have an easily changeable 4/5/6-valved BAT.

When you add in that proviso so often used in this community ("for such a large horn") this horn plays very, very well. It plays quite well for a tuba of any size, to be honest. However, the low range still has those compromises that all tubas have, but that additional valves help to correct. The two main reasons I want this are 1.) low E 245 is pretty sharp, whereas 234 is quite flat. Neither use 1st so a slide pull would be a little less convenient, though it has always been doable. Also, the one truly out of tune pitch is the Eb below the staff, which is very sharp if 2 and 3 are set to make Ab be in tune across the range. Other true 6th valve uses would be 2456 for Eb, 12456 for D, 23456 for Db, and 123456 as a pedal C substitute.

Is it worth the added weight? Honestly, I don't know. My Kurath is approaching riduculousness with it's weight and how my design makes the horn more top-heavy. This horn is already very heavy, but I have started using a tuba rest, so things with the Kurath have become quite acceptable now. I tried the Holton with the rest for a few hours over the last two days and I like it quite a bit, now that I have the bugs worked out in my setup and trust the rest with this much weight.

So before I work to install this 6th valve (which, again is of a modular design) I need to consider that I have to pay off a large bill, and need to sell a horn relatively quickly. It is easily a $12,000 tuba now. It is actually better than a lot of the high-zoot Yorkophones that I played before I bought my YamaYork. However, being a raw brass "Frankentuba" (an unknown quantity until you play it) I know it will never draw a buyer at the price it is worth, so I think that $12,000 is a more than fair price for a very serious player who wants this type of sound with this level of user friendliness.

I put it up for sale a while back but decided that I was not really prepared to part with it; I love playing it too much. (I think I like it more than my excellent YamaYork, but I do not think I could get my purchase price back on it for a long time, seeing how I am absolutely against shipping tubas of any value, ever, in to or out of my State. Getting the thirty grand back would not be an issue for anyone who has played these expensive and somewhat inconsistent tubas, as this one is a truly outstanding example. The issue is that that price point is aimed at a very specific and small demographic, thus very little chance for a sale in a reasonable amount of time. I am also unwilling to part with it unless the player is already in a full-time gig and is known as someone who does not accidentally back their Tahoe over their tuba in a parking lot. So with that and my price it is not going to be up for sale anytime soon, if ever.

That means that the Holton has to be the one, because at $12K it is an approachable purchase for a much larger pool of players. Time will eventually become an issue for my medical debt repayment, so that means the YamaYork loses this race; I'm keeping it. Unless I find some hitherto unknown cache of $$$$ to pay off some major medical expenses my Holton has to be my sacrificial fiscal lamb because I feel it would sell faster. I also do not need thirty grand.

That beings me to my question: Would a well-designed and neatly-installed 6th valve move the Holton from Outstanding Frankentuba into the sphere of things too weird to sell? If I decide to again try and sell the Holton — seriously, this time — would the 6th valve be an asset or a liability?

My thought is that if I leave the current removable 6th section alone and build out a combined removable 5th/6th section so that the player could swap between the two, would that become something like a selling "feature"?

I am going to do this exact thing because my current 5th setup works so well and I want to be able to easily revert to it if I dislike the added 6th valve. If a 6th valve is not an asset for a possible sale I could sell with the currnet 5th valve and keep the 5th/6th section to use the parts in other projects. I guess that means that my question actually would be whether it would be more attractive to include the 5th-only section or the 5th/6th section as a part of any sales ad copy. For an additional grand I could include both.

I, in my tiny, reptillian, smooth-brained mind, think it is a great idea and a huge asset to such an instrument (a thoroughly cleaned-up low register for a horn most folks would want specifically for low material) but I remember some unfavorable comments from a few of you back when I originally floated this idea a few years ago.

Heck, I don't want to sell the beast at all, but I have been in the hospital a lot the last two years, and I only see this becoming more common as I age. I need to clear those accounts so the docs will keep treating me when needed. I am a heart patient and a diabetic so neither situation will ever go away, though I have shown some great progress in both cases. I am just visualizing cancer or some other hideously expensive malady, and me having to go into bankruptcy or sell horns for givaway prices to stay out of financial trouble. I want to zero out all the balances ASAP for this reason.

So, if you are still reading this tome, what say you? Sell the horn as is (4+1) or sell it as a six-banger (4+2 or 4+1+1)? Or maybe include both options for more $$$$$?

Any feedback will receive the time and consideration it deserves. Thanks very much for reading…

Wade

[bloke]

first (admission) I didn't read all of that...but I scanned it (way to quickly, and way to much in a surface manner, so...)

Stuff that we own is for us to enjoy while alive and not to worry over (as that's not possible) after we're gone.

One time, my oldest offspring (the only one whose life is under control fairly well - in spite of raising three teenagers) "sighed" over the fact that it's going to have to be her who disposes of all this jazz, to which I responded, "There's no need to worry over disposing over this stuff; I can just will everything off to the National Rifle Association, and you won't have to mess with any of it" ...to which she became really quiet.

...but I'm thinking you don't (??) have any offspring, but STILL - the stuff that you do and have is for YOU and for you to HAVE and DO during YOUR life, and not another person's life (after the end of your own).

My tubas and cases are getting heavier, but I'm not going to worry about that until I can't tote 'em anymore, and - at that point - I'll probably come up with some sort of way (if I can still play) to still - somehow - be able to move them around anyway.

I sort of wish I was slightly more like my sister...Her next birthday will be 80 and - at this point - I believe she could beat the sh!t out of both of us (both her older and younger brothers).

health...yeah...but we're all going to eventually become just as unhealthy (either just as gradually or more suddenly), and we're all going to perish...

The time is now...no...not necessarily to "do something", but (simply) to enjoy.

[the elephant]

Short blokified version:

I am going to build a separate combined 5th/6th valve section (removable) so that the Holton has BOTH a 5th valve AND a 5th/6th valve. If I have to sell this tuba to pay for my mountain of medical bills, should I sell it as a 5- or 6-banger? Or for more money sould I include BOTH options?

Sorry that was so long, but I had to establish what I am doing and why, before the question really makes much sense to the majority of our community who do not read by extensive tomes about my projects.

[bloke]

OK...
It's sort of helps to have the philosophical stuff edited out. I'm guilty of going off on epic tangents (as everyone knows), and probably most of that stuff doesn't get read. LOL.

As you know, my smaller B flat features a valve that most people would consider to be a "sixth valve" (only).

The slide tubing for it is 3/4 of an inch bore and is that USA made Conn-Selmer brass stuff...so it's available until C-S goes belly up, or discontinues the model on which it is used, either of which seems to be distinct possibilities.

Even though this is a very small deviation and most B-flat tubas don't even feature fifth valves, it seems like everyone around me was hand wringing over my decision - even though they don't play B flat and the tuba is not theirs.

If I wanted to spend an extra hour or so, I could pull a little bit more of that tubing off the shelf and make a piggyback thing so that the so-called sixth valve could be converted to a more traditional so-called fifth valve..

You know that I've sold some personal instruments that - when I offered them for sale - it seemed to shock people, but I really like that little thing, and I'm really not interested in nor even contemplating selling it. It well could end up being the last tuba that I ever own, if I end up selling off a whole bunch of tubas... but it might be MORE sellable if I assemble that jazz so that the F semitone circuit could be made into an F whole tone circuit.

Most players of most instruments seem to be really inflexible (as are people about all sorts of things), mostly "just because" or "because that's the way it's done". Just consider high-end euphoniums... They're different - a bit, but almost not at all in mechanics.

If it's not going to consume a big chunk of your life to make a fifth valve (only) thing that pops in with a traditional thumb trigger, that might be a thing that would reduce some consumers' hesitancy to buy the thing...but (as an annoying and very poor substitute for an online/cyber older brother), I would probably encourage you to not invest very much time or money in the so-called default setting option simply to make it easier to sell.


...Consider how much micro-easier it would be for me to make an F-whole tone extension for this F-semitone circuit COMPARED TO what you're proposing for you instrument (to render it more conforming, and possibly more quickly sellable)....

ie. Look at all the space (ok...probably admittedly: intentionally) left for that possible adaption here:

The 6th branch cover is NOT a "patch", but - rather - it's a "guard", as my wrist rests there - to operate the #1 slide through the instrument body cavity.

re: Fat Bastard, I was completely ready to alter it's F-whole tone 5th slide to a semitone (REALLY easy to do), but - dang if that 2-4 B-natural isn't "not really all that sharp" and EVEN the 5-2-3- B-natural isn't not really all that flat"...and it's really easy to set the 4th slide for a passage, and then put it back...so (rather than changing #5 from a whole tone to a semitone, I reconfigured it as a few-inches LONGER whole tone slide (whereby most of the 5th-valve pitches are "about" in tune with it pushed all the way in IN ORDER THAT my (yes) sharp 5-2-3-4 pitch would be offered several inches of pull by the 5th valve slide (as that slide is "right there" next to the #1 slide), and pulling 5 involves far less arm-motion - ie. none - vs. reaching over and pulling #4. EVERY DIFFERENT TUBA creates, defines, and (sometimes) solves its own issues.

[tubatodd]

@the elephant What does the "market" want? It wan'ts good 6/4 4+1 BATs. That's the recipe for the "current hotness."

Do i think the 6th valve appeals to everyone? Unfortunately, no.

On the TalkBass forum, there was a post I had read that asked "what turns you off in a classified ad?" The most common reply was "modified." Sure the 5th valve (and probably other tweaks that I am unaware of) is certainly a modification. But that is a mod that puts the horn closer to "standard" (for lack of a better term).

You're a Jeep guy. I am too. You'll get this. I would love to own a 2003-2006 TJ Sahara edition............stock*. And most people who want to buy a used Jeep would rather buy it stock and untainted. They are probably don't want a shade-tree/backyard lift kit, fenders missing and a giant light bar..........or a bunch of decals (I'm guilty of that).

Does that mean your 6th valve is a bad idea? Not at all. Is it what most people want? Probably not.

* I already have a 2023 Willys JLU with 3800 miles on it. Still smells new. I also have a 2011 JK (daily driver). They are both stock, except for some decals and aftermarket head unit.

[Sousaswag]

You’re right that you will need a very specific buyer for this tuba. I think that pool would be even smaller with a 6th valve, even as cool and nice as it would be.

Most people “just deal” with 5v imperfect intonation. I don’t think a 6th valve would make it any more desirable than it already is.

However, if you want to do it, go for it. I don’t think it would hurt the value of the tuba.

Someone will buy it. Some weirdo like me. But I already have a 345.

[bloke]

Every freakin' audition features "The Ride" and (C tuba) a 6th valve is THE ANSWER to the suck-@$$ intonation issues.

As well as any "low E" issues (Symphonic Metamorphosis, Prokofiev, others...)

bloke "I could remark more about those two - in particular - but will refrain."

[York-aholic]

My thoughts:

-the more a tuba (Jeep, hot rod, etc) is customized to be exactly what it’s owner wants, the smaller the pool becomes of people for whom that tuba appeals enough to purchase. This is regardless of whether the modifications are good, useful, beneficial. A bone stock Jeep is appealing to lots of people, even the people who look at it as a blank canvas to build their dream Jeep. A highly modified, super capable off road, rock crawler Jeep appeals to the smaller group of people that do that activity and a few wannabes who don’t realize that driving said vehicle on the street isn’t the best option in the world.

-the yamayork is “hot” (highly desirable) right now. Even given the high price and your requirements for a buyer, might the pool of perspective buyers still be of nearly similar size for both horns?

-while you don’t need the extra $18k of selling the Yamaha over the Holton, do you like the Yamaha $18k more? Could it be sold and the extra be stuffed in your mattress for future semi-emergencies? Emergent situations are bad enough, even when you aren’t wondering how on earth you’re going to pay for said emergency.

-what about putting them both up for sale and whatever goes first, goes first? Unless I’ve read your posts wrong (possible), you are quite happy with both instruments.

————————————————————————————————————————-

If confining myself to your actual question (to add more valves or not as a selling feature):

Please see my first point above.

[Mary Ann]

When the time comes, it's unlikely you would be in a position to do this, and I don't even know if it is feasible. That would be -- take it to a conference (or get someone else to) and sell it there. Play testers galore, and one would possibly fall in love.
With the bills pressure, gee I dunno. What they gonna do if you don't pay? Are they going to refuse to treat you because you have unpaid bills, in reality? What is it that they can come get if you are perpetually in arrears? Can you declare bankruptcy?

[tofu]

When the time comes, it's unlikely you would be in a position to do this, and I don't even know if it is feasible. That would be -- take it to a conference (or get someone else to) and sell it there. Play testers galore, and one would possibly fall in love.

Every dopey kid is going to want to honk on it. They’re not going to be buyers. And all these people picking it up and setting it down runs the risk of damage. A serious buyer with the funds to buy is not going to want to try it in an Elephant Room (no pun intended) but in suitable place like a hall where they can get a true reading of it’s capabilities. If he could get suitable space in the area of a conference that could be a way to attract potential buyers without them having to make a separate trip.

With the bills pressure, gee I dunno. What they gonna do if you don't pay? Are they going to refuse to treat you because you have unpaid bills, in reality? What is it that they can come get if you are perpetually in arrears?

Well it depends. Hospitals can’t by law refuse treatment. But all others can. I noticed my health insurer has a new policy that not only asks for payment at every subsequent visit and states in writing that failure to pay may result in you not being seen. You have to fill out a long questionnaire prior to every visit and you have to sign several times stating if insurance doesn’t pay then the person listed will pay.

I’ve had a couple surgeries this year and the second one they screwed up the billing. My insurer was going to cover everything before the surgeries so I ignored the second billing for a significant amount figuring the medical group and insurer would figure it out on their own. That didn’t happened and I had to spend several calls with the medical group to insist I wasn’t liable. They had an agreement with the insurer to do the procedure at a price - which the insurer had promptly paid. They then tried to get an amount over and above that from me. So when I had subsequent visits when I walked in the first thing they tried to do was get me to pay - which I refused as the claim was being contested by me. They did see me but I wasn’t happy about being pressured for payment as I know if you pay them and then you subsequently are proven not liable for those charges you will have one whale of a time getting that money back. Interestingly enough after a couple months they apparently after reviewing it - changed the billing to zero owed - but they never informed me of that decision. I had to look it up on my own. What bothers me is a lot of patients would have just paid the bill not knowing it was in error and there are a lot of errors in medical billing. But it’s incredibly difficult to understand half of the charges on these bills.

Can you declare bankruptcy?

That’s really a last resort. Bankruptcy laws vary by state.

I’m assuming he has medical insurance involved with negotiated rates and is paying the co-pay or the over and above amount the insurer paid. Many medical providers will negotiate not only a lower amount of the total now due but offer a payment plan with little to no interest. This spreads the amount over a much longer period of time allowing for a much more manageable amount on a monthly period extending for anywhere from 12 to 36 months or more. Some have forgivable amounts with met payments over time. Worth a call to the hospital finance department which often also have charitable foundations that help folks with income challenges.

[Tubeast]

The idea of potential preferences of future buyers is what motivated me to have MELTON make another set of 5th and 6th valve slides for my MW46S.

Instead of 5/8ths and 5/4-tone slides (Or whatever. Elongated 2nd and 1st valves, respectively, to match the C-tuba you get when 4th is activated), mine are just a second set of an F-tuba´s 2nd and 1st valves.

The idea behind it:
- rather than alternate fingerings, I think in terms of little (5), more (6th) and most (5+6) compensation for the right-hand fingerings.
- This way, I can play chromatically using well-trained muscle-memory rather than logical but counter-intuitive new set of fingerings as I get lower than "dreaded low-C".

Atmittedly, intonation is not perfect, but "good enough" to just fly over in fast passages.
At the very least, Ab, G and Gb fingered 2346, 1346 and 123456, respectively, are spot-on.
And on long notes, there are ways to compensate by lipping, alternative combinations or a 4th valve trigger.

So when I had them do a complete overhaul of this 35-40 years-old-horn, I ordered said second set of slides, 1) to check out the "official way" myself and 2) to make it easier to sell to maybe a budding pro tubist in need of a quality first F.

Turns out, intonation quirks with that new set are even wonkier than with my odd one, to the point I put them away for someone else to use.
B natural 45 and Bb 46 are spot-on, but below that the agony starts.

As to the handing-down of my five tubas and gear:
I´ll try to enjoy ONE of them as long as I can at least look at it and listen to the (few and far in-between) recordings I will have made over the decades.
If the right person or entity (i.e. my community band, or grand-nephews/nieces, or whoever) comes along, I might make a gift or donation of one, maxmum two tubas while I can enjoy the act of giving and appreciate someone´s gratitude.

The remaining ones I hope I won´t miss a chance to eventually turn them into cash and maybe finance a cruisade or two premium recliners for my wife and I to populate while we can.
She earned some benefit from the times she´s letting me seek musical recreation on my own.

[Mary Ann]

Sorry -- I put this in the wrong post. Yeeks. Erased.

[the elephant]

How id this question about adding a valve to my horn become a deep discussion about health and bankruptcies and such?

What about my question?

Thanks, folks.

I'll start a new thread and try to re-ask the question in a non-hey-look-a-squirrel manner. Sorry.

[hrender]

I am not in the target audience for this horn, but I think you answer your own question here:

So before I work to install this 6th valve (which, again is of a modular design) I need to consider that I have to pay off a large bill, and need to sell a horn relatively quickly. It is easily a $12,000 tuba now. It is actually better than a lot of the high-zoot Yorkophones that I played before I bought my YamaYork. However, being a raw brass "Frankentuba" (an unknown quantity until you play it) I know it will never draw a buyer at the price it is worth, so I think that $12,000 is a more than fair price for a very serious player who wants this type of sound with this level of user friendliness.

[hrender]

Follow-up: If someone plays the horn and says, "Man, I wish this thing had sixth valve," you can negotiate that separately.

[the elephant]

I have decided.

I will buy the tubing, crooks and other parts needed to build a 5th circuit to solder to the currently-unused 6th, and will fit that to the horn separately at the end of the summer. Then I will have all three option available to me (as I outlined above): 4 pistons, 4+1, and 4+2 (or 4+1+1, depending on how I design the lever layout).

If I end up deciding to sell this excellent tuba, I will offer it as a five-banger with the "delete tube" and the combined 5th/6th system available for an upcharge. I am betting it will sell as a 5-valved horn, and that will leave me all those parts for future work.

Best answer.

Thanks, people.

[bloke]

I apologize for my posts in this thread being sort of philosophical and somewhat off topic, but my only point with all the rhetoric is that all of our stuff is to please ourselves, that if it's still pleasing you maybe you should keep it if you can afford to, to do things with and to it that please you and no one else, all that sort of thing.

[dp]

What about my question?

-deleted dp-

[Inkin]

What about my question?

Personally, I really think the target market for your horn is small enough that a 6th valve won't change much in terms of saleability. It's going to be hard to sell either way. If it was going to be easy to sell, someone would have jumped on the horn when you were selling it way under what it is worth while trying to figure out how to get the Yamayork.

Someone who is going to buy it will be capable of telling whether the 6th valve is useful to them or not. I don't really think you'll get extra people looking at it because of the 6th valve, but I don't think it will turn people off either.