Torchinsky Bach cello suites movements 😎👍

[bloke]

I'm dusting off stuff that I have not looked at in DECADES (several) to find more stuff to play on this great big fat Miraphone B-flat tuba (model 98), as I strive to continue to improve my mastery of this instrument as well as reading-and-playing-contrabass-B-flat familiarity.

I found THIS (pictured below), which features selected movements from the six cello suites of Bach.

I looked around on the internet and - apparently (??) - it's out of print.

I'm seeing a blue sticker on it, which makes me wonder/suspect that I may have purchased it at the Interlochen sheet music store during the summer of 1974...sort of assuming that "blue" was a code for a price. Otherwise, I could have purchased it from Robert King...but I suspect the former.

These are all voiced in the EUPHONIUM range, which gives me an opportunity to
- read B-flat in the string bass octave (as the range seems to "bottom out" at double-low C")...
...as well as to
- later go back and play some of them on euphonium (working on making two or three alternate/tuning fingerings more automatic, as well as working that left hand index finger thingie).

I would rate Mr. Torchinsky's transcriptions (as well as choices of movements to include) as "very good".

(I'm growing a bit weary of playing 19th century vocalises and contrabass tuba orchestral excerpts, so this is refreshing.)

Once I get to where I'm "playing" them (vs. "reading" them), I'm going back to this https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ePPMrX4YtkM again, to steal some phrasing ideas.

Something else that I've pulled out is (as mentioned in another thread) the Verne Reynolds 48 Etudes for Horn (sloppily transcribed - at least, this first edition - for tuba by Cherry Beauregard)...but the Reynolds book is "brain work" whereas the Bach cello movements are "music work".

' not mentioning ANY names NOR will I...but (looking over youtube - simply - for "stuff to play"...and NOT-AT-ALL claiming to be any sort of "gift to the tuba") does anyone else ever look at any of that stuff, place their forehead in their hand, do this , and then quickly click away...or is it just me?

btw...Adjusted for inflation, this 1974 $2.50 book would be $15 today (with money only worth 1/6th of what it was then - as I reached adulthood).
...save...?? invest...?? (Your "savings" or "investments" had better AT LEAST TRIPLE in monetary value every ten years, in order to "make" anything...might be better to buy stuff and flip it for more...QUICKLY, and A WHOLE BUNCH.)

anyway...THIS:


...and I believe the Conn 20J was developed right towards the end of Bach's lifetime.

[Tim Jackson]

Here's my favorite:

Suite No. 1 Prelude Mischa Maisky https://youtu.be/mGQLXRTl3Z0

I've been working on this stuff forever and I am still not happy with it... but then again, I am very pleased with the progress and excited to have the end in sight. Working stuff that is just about impossible sure does make one stretch!

I still love the Verne Reynolds Horn Etudes in the original treble clef version - just seems to lay better for me.

...even if you don't want to hear this - Since you're looking to blow the cobwebs out of your BBb chops - do my 30-45 workout: go through the Kopprash and play all your favorites as fast as you can! You will come out on the other side with a whole new edge!

Happy 4th to all!
P.S. The country only looks bad on T.V. IT"S STILL THE BEST!
GOD BLESS THE USA!

TJ

[bloke]

How long ago do you suppose he recorded that...possibly thirty years ago...?? - amazing...

======================
I suppose it's OK to be an optimist, as it's probably cheaper than staying drunk.

You should keep that York tuba; it will continue to have value into the future.

tuba: the sentence-finishing word that - when people hear exposed musical lines played on one - they are often heard to say, "That's pretty good for a"

[Tubeast]

Great CDs that have been collecting dust in my basement are coming to my mind...

Walter Hilgers
- "Tubadour", some of this has been published on "Editions Marc Reift"
- "Tubaroque" with lots of nice Isaac Albeniz stuff, published at HeBu Musikverlag

Floyd Cooley´s romantic tuba CDs are also coming to my mind.
Schumann Lieder etc... Great stuff and probably a good read...

[2nd tenor]

I’m not good at the Bach Cello Suites but love to attempt them. Etudes and exercises are all well and good but they tend to bore me whilst the Bach Suites are both MUSIC and stuff that stretches me - it really has made a big difference to my skill levels and funnily enough has somehow made exercises and etudes less of a sapping and boring ‘dead hand’.

My bass clef reading is weak and what I play in Brass Band is transposed treble clef music. Fortunately for me I can make use of this treble clef arrangement: larry clark bach six cello suites for trumpet. Because it’s for Trumpet three valves are all you need - plus a lot more skill than I have - and if you’re an Eb Tuba player reading bass clef then add three flats to the key and play as in bass clef. I believe that there are other arrangements out their one being by Doug Yeo for Bass Trombone. There is also a Clark version for Trombone in Bass Clef, good for Euphonium and the mentally agile playing larger Tubas might transpose the music down an octave.

As a side bar I’m always on the look-out for unaccompanied music (tunes) so leads to other non-exercise and non-etude stuff that’s fun to play and helps with skills would be welcomed.

[bloke]

I really don’t have much trouble reading a lot of the baroque and romantic era music, because it’s pretty easy to tell where it’s going. For me (assuming a tremendous amount of velocity is not involved), the purpose of working on music of those eras is to try to play it smoothly/clearly/beautifully… if I ever actually accomplish that, that’s a bonus.

Stuff like the Reynolds: I use to stretch my ears and my mind.

old (tonal) tuba technical exercise books:
I have revisited most of them too many times, over the years, and have grown fairly weary of them. I might grab some treble clef (tonal) technical exercise books…probably trumpet/oboe/etc.

B-flat tubas – particularly large ones – require perfection to avoid flubbed articulations and slurs. Going back to my easier to play (shorter and skinnier) instruments, playing the big B-flat is really keeping me honest - whereby playing the other instruments begins to approach (comparatively speaking) effortlessness.

The market in which our work is relatively small… Probably under two million people between the two or three metro areas/cities/towns where I play music. I’m not getting any younger, and I need to push myself so that the reason I’m hired to play is because those who hire me are seeking a really good product, and not simply because someone is accustomed to hiring me. The latter reason is really not something that works out well for people eventually, and - when they suddenly find themselves replaced at most of the venues where they formerly worked - it often catches people by surprise, based on what I’ve seen. I don’t play anywhere where there is anything such as “tenure”, and - were there such - I would hope that I would have a the good judgment to duck out - when it was time. My strategy has been to play in such a way whereby my colleagues – whose parts are more are more prominent – are showcased (via my lower pitched parts) as nicely as possible. I know for a fact that they are aware when this is occurring and it went when it is not occurring. For me to continue working, I need (besides avoiding being pigeonholed as to only being able to play certain styles of music) for higher-pitched instrumentalists to continue to say to contractors and music directors, “Call bloke”

[bloke]

…so I went to IMSLP today, selected one of the better cello editions (Peters), downloaded all six complete suites to my laptop, and read all the way through suites 1 and 2, along with part of 3, I went ahead and played the multi-string (double/ triple/quadruple stops) arpeggios in grace notes fashion, which added some fun to it.
It’s been a long time since I’ve done that, and I’m going to admit that I’ve never done it before on a contrabass tuba in the contrabass octave (certainly not with a FatBastard), as I certainly SHOULD have done MANY times.
Since I was playing them on a five-valve B-flat tuba - whereby the low C is the sharp fingering 5–2-3–4, I played that pitch as a “false tone“ (with third valve), instead.
I’ll be playing through these (yeah, in the low octave) quite a bit - as I have neglected visiting them for decades.
Somewhere, I have an ancient Xerox set from a library hardback edition of the complete works of Bach…It’s just a little bit easier to read the cello music after someone has marked in some articulation stuff – even if it’s bowings.
… so maybe Torchinsky’s (only) 14 page book of a few of the movements from the six suites went out of print because it’s just as easy to check the cello music itself out of a library and play it off of the original music - or off of an edition…(??)

If nothing else, a really good - and really different - new-to-us tuba gets us to practicing, doesn’t it ?

[Doc]

B-flat tubas – particularly large ones – require perfection to avoid flubbed articulations and slurs. Going back to my easier to play (shorter and skinnier) instruments, playing the big B-flat is really keeping me honest - whereby playing the other instruments begins to approach (comparatively speaking) effortlessness.

This is true for me also. If you can make the beefer sound good, the others will only become more "easy." I try to do all my '"skill-building/maintaing" stuff on the BBb, but trying to do it with a focus on the music (as much as some things can be called music). And while the 186 and Symphonie are a bit more effortless than the 496, the Eb is the REAL easy button. If I spend too much time on it, then play the BBb, I realize I am being spoiled by the Eb and not being kept honest as much as I need.

My strategy has been to play in such a way whereby my colleagues – whose parts are more are more prominent – are showcased (via my lower pitched parts) as nicely as possible. I know for a fact that they are aware when this is occurring and it went when it is not occurring. For me to continue working, I need (besides avoiding being pigeonholed as to only being able to play certain styles of music) for higher-pitched instrumentalists to continue to say to contractors and music directors, “Call bloke”

^^^THIS^^^

[Rick Denney]

I play out of the Peters Edition, making octave transpositions as needed, on whatever tuba I have in my hands. That book opens automatically to my favorite spots.

I find it to be more challenging than just about anything I’ve attempted. It demands more than most music a separate awareness of what is technical and what is musical. My problem with that is Bach’s music is to me unfathomable—I’m sort of awestruck by it.

Rick “who once downloaded six different famous cellist interpretations—Fournier, Ma, Rostropovich, etc.—of a couple of them to try and gain some insight” Denney

[bloke]

Part of the genius of Bach is that (sure: with a some exceptions) it continuously goes where one wouldn't expect, while still being sublime.

(not to be hummed along with, unless the person humming has heard a particular piece quite a few times)

[donn]

If you can make the beefer sound good, the others will only become more "easy."

I don't know ... I think I have mentioned that I practice on that suite, actually probably more than 90% of my playing at home. What happens for me, is that the extra size of the BBb - perhaps relative to its other dimensions - has more influence on the sound, and conversely the Eb more clearly reflects my input. So I don't notice defects in tone quality as much on the BBb, as I do on the Eb. Probably depends a lot on the two instruments; mine play very differently.

[Doc]

If you can make the beefer sound good, the others will only become more "easy."

I don't know ... I think I have mentioned that I practice on that suite, actually probably more than 90% of my playing at home. What happens for me, is that the extra size of the BBb - perhaps relative to its other dimensions - has more influence on the sound, and conversely the Eb more clearly reflects my input. So I don't notice defects in tone quality as much on the BBb, as I do on the Eb. Probably depends a lot on the two instruments; mine play very differently.

Understood. You could roughly equate it to heavy lifting in the gym to build strength (BBb) vs. specific skills for a specific sport (Eb). Each type of training has a purpose, and (IMHO) they benefit each other.

[Mary Ann]

.

[the elephant]

I loved Mr. Torchinsky's playing. He was my model when I was growing up. I knew of him long before I knew about CSO, Reiner, Jacobs, et al. It so happens that we have connected again, MA, as I am listening to him in Russian Easter Overture (Ormandy/Philly) as I read your comment. I always wanted to have a time machine so that I could see him play with them live. I have always tried to sound like him in the orchestra.

The man was like Arby's: He had "the meats"…

His sound was gutsy and raw, like Jim Morrison next to Tiny Tim.

Holy cow, like him or not, he laid stuff down with authority, and sometimes that trumps everything else with a live audience. I loved studying with Mr. Jacobs, and I revere my CSO recordings. Jacobs had that tuba. Jacobs had that brass section. Jacobs had that sound.

But Abe Torchinsky was like the storm before the calm.

[MikeMason]

Thanks for this topic bloke! I found my copy and am having fun. Popping out low e,d, and c every now and then keeps you honest! Great music and with so many ways to express. Also, have you considered making a flat half step 5th valve slide for FB? You seem to think it would be more useful.

[donn]

Yeah, low C ... whatever. For me, it's more about "trill? maybe this time I will leave that for the violoncello." And some double/triple/quadruple stops that don't happen.

[bloke]

Playing the fourth string pitches – whether they are stand-alone or part of a triple/quadruple stop, promote flexibility for me, and playing the quadruple stops is sort of like incorporating Schlossberg trumpet exercises into the suites.

This is much like a lot of our other practice:
When we are truthful, we will admit that we are rarely asked to do much in ensembles, and - unless it’s beyond a certain level - not even in brass quintet music… but to be able to do what we’re asked to do really well, we had better be able to do much more than that of which we are asked.

[donn]

Sure, but, chest-beating aside, the tuba can't really do double stops, and there's a musical price to be paid for trying. E.g., tempo vivace,

[bloke]

no chest-beating...That stuff is hard (for me), and "getting double low C's to respond in meter" is hard *(for me) too...which is why I attempt them.
I might (??) chest-beat to this extent: I hope - over the decades - I've become SLIGHTLY smarter, and have figured out how to "finesse" more challenging figures - rather than "muscle" them...and "finessing" might possibly (??) also sound a bit better than does "muscling".

Getting older, I'm trying to come fairly close to "maintaining". I'm only an ant - compared to Casals, but his quote (in his old age) is widely quoted.

the rare open-string droning (ie. example) - of course not

...yet it might be interesting to edit such passages (if/when possible) in this manner:

cello-peters edited for brass.jpg (38.44 KiB) Viewed 1518 times

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It's said to be nearly impossible to play the Prelude #1 in C (well-tempered clavier - the Bach/Gounod "Ave Maria" one) on a 6-string guitar - YET playing ALL five pitches in EACH arpeggio on SEPARATE strings (so all pitches "ring"). When I was 16, I worked on it. There were a couple of (extremely awkward left-hand positions) which I couldn't quite manage to grasp in meter, but (again) I worked on it. (Of course, when I would PERFORM it - with some singer or instrumentalist playing/singing the Gounod thing - I would play it in traditional work-around ways - to maintain time, and - also - so as to not visually distract from the soloist.)

[the elephant]

Sure, but, chest-beating aside…

I don't see *any* of that here. None. I see excellent advice. And a barrel filled to the top with TRUTH.

… there's a musical price to be paid for trying…

So don't try then? Because that is what your words are saying. (I know that is not what you meant, but it is what you said.)

He is not suggesting we play these for anyone but ourselves. He is not suggesting we try to play things that are physically impossible on the tuba. He is suggesting that we use great music like this opus to stretch ourselves and GET BETTER as an outgrowth of the process. And I agree with this completely.

In the past (at TN, actually) I have stated that if trapped on an island with my tuba and ONE piece of music to play for life that it would be this collection of six suites. And for me, it would not be this simplified, incomplete book; after many years that simplification and all the missing movements would drive me nuts. Everything has been tub-ified and "figured out" for me, which I don't like. I want to figure things out for myself. I have this book and have used it for many years. I still do. It's a great tuba collection. I would never trouble myself with actual double-stopped notes, but I would learn to roll up each arpeggio that did not require more than one pitch to be sounded at a time. There is NO reason to omit those, especially because they are difficult, and therefore useful to us to master.

One can work on these for the rest of his or her life and never play them the same way twice, and everything we do with them (or to them) will make us a better interpreter of music and more technically proficient on our chosen instrument.

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