piston valve 186 CC

[cjk]

If somebody wanted effectively a "piston valved Miraphone 186 CC", what tuba would you recommend to them and why?

Basically:

• 186 / 188 intonation (ie, "stellar". maybe a flat open E, pull on some 1+2 combos, maybe one sharp 2+3, then all the low pitch problems built into the 5 valve system)

• A 16.5 inch bell at the smallest to an 18 inch bell at the largest

• 4 pistons and 1 rotor

• Nothing weird or huge or honestly even 'big'

• Nothing you have for sale

• No weird valve angles

• No "it's bigger but..."

• No, a Mira 1291/2/3 CC is not a good solution

I have my own ideas and biases on this but I'm wondering what other folks would recommend.

[iiipopes]

https://www.tubaexchange.com/collection ... 2424028481
St Pete CC

[arpthark]

Not 100% sure on the intonation aspect, but MW 2145 checks most of those boxes, yeah?

From those that I've played, I remember the intonation being good, but maybe not 188 good.

I remember the small piston version being different (not sure if bad or good) from the VMI conglomerate big valve version.

[bort2.0]

MW 2145, with a preference to the small valve/small bell version.

[bloke]

a 2155 with an aftermarket smaller mouthpipe tube… A bit larger, but a remarkable point and shoot instrument

[arpthark]

I always thought of them like:

2145 = 186-ish

2155 = 188-ish

The only downside for me about these tubas is the stock fifth valve thumb lever. Made my hand cramp up.

[bort2.0]

I always thought of them like:

2145 = 186-ish

2155 = 188-ish

The only downside for me about these tubas is the stock fifth valve thumb lever. Made my hand cramp up.

Downside for me is a lot like the Miraphones...

Seems like I'd push the 2145 too hard, too often.
The 2155 fixes that problem, but it's one size larger.

[cjk]

MW 2155 is a perfectly acceptable answer IMHO. It was a 4/4 tuba regardless of what MW called it.

Also IMHO, with the increased average "big-ness" of tubas these days, the difference between a 186 and a 188 to me seems pretty academic. While certainly different from one another, they're practically the same size. I don't think anyone in their right mind would argue that they aren't both well in the realm of "4/4".

If I had entitled this thread "piston valve 188 CC" instead, I would still find all of these answers acceptable.

[bloke]

My problem with suggesting the 2145 is that I just don’t like those.

Another suggestion would be an exceptional Kalison DS model, but you would have to pick through five of them.

re: the 2155
They vary as well, but I’ve found them to be generally better than the look-alike model 2000.

[arpthark]

My problem with suggesting the 2145 is that I just don’t like those.

I knew a guy who was a complete doofus who owned a 2145. It made me associate 2145s with the doofus, and thus (irrationally) dislike the tuba.

This doofus had a doofus friend who owned a 2155, and same story.

Years later, I played a 2145 again and thought it was nice. Not had a chance to try a post-doofus 2155, though.

---

back on topic:

Would a Meister Walter Nirschl 4/4 fit the bill?

[bloke]

I’ve played some of those that play remarkably well in tune, and others that don’t.
This runs the gamut from handmade, not handmade, and B&S/Besson-made

The ones with the Nirschl name on them seem to play a little woofie to me to be associated with a 186… maybe the “Besson“ ones, because they generally play sort of stiff - sort of like some of the mediocre 186 Instruments.

[cjk]

...
re: the 2155
They vary as well, but I’ve found them to be generally better than the look-alike model 2000.

That's an intriguing statement.

[cjk]

...
back on topic:

Would a Meister Walter Nirschl 4/4 fit the bill?

19 inch bell, so no.

[cjk]

when I worked for Brook mays music back around 2001, both the 2155 and the 2000 were well stocked, and I got to play several samples of both

At the time, dealer cost on the 2155 was around 6500 and the 2000 was around 9500. I could never justify that price difference, as I thought they played very similar to each other

[jtm]

I’ve played some of those that play remarkably well in tune, and others that don’t.
This runs the gamut from handmade, not handmade, and B&S/Besson-made

The ones with the Nirschl name on them seem to play a little woofie to me to be associated with a 186… maybe the “Besson“ ones, because they generally play sort of stiff - sort of like some of the mediocre 186 Instruments.

Wait. What? There are mediocre 186 instruments?

[jtuba]

Does it need to be similar in shape as the 186? If not, I'd recommend the MW 3450. Not a popular model it seems

Works well enough for me for brass quintet

[bloke]

I’ve played some of those that play remarkably well in tune, and others that don’t.
This runs the gamut from handmade, not handmade, and B&S/Besson-made

The ones with the Nirschl name on them seem to play a little woofie to me to be associated with a 186… maybe the “Besson“ ones, because they generally play sort of stiff - sort of like some of the mediocre 186 Instruments.

Wait. What? There are mediocre 186 instruments?

I bought a mediocre one brand new in 1974.
The mediocre ones featured saggy third and fifth partials.

[Kctuba]

I’m gonna make the hard call here….. are you ready??

Nothing…. None. Nada.

With the exception of a frankenhorn that may live out there somewhere, I don’t think that horn exists. To me, the MW 45/55 models don’t have even close to the tight, centered tone and ‘feel’. That to me is a big word when talking about the 186 horns. They have a VERY distinct feel and response that I’ve only really felt in a couple other rotor horns. There’s a reason those horns have a spot in so many peoples hearts.

[bort2.0]

The Meinl Weston 45slp is probably physically about what you described, but not a CC tuba.

I think the B&S Apollo came in a piston version... Again, right physical size, but otherwise sort of a trainwreck of a tuba

[bloke]

'55 mouthpipe is a paper towel roll tube....TOO LARGE.
When tossed in the trash and replaced with a "normal" mouthpipe - these are amazing, and - yeah - "tighten" up.

oh yeah...The bell needs to be an "archie" bell.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wro3bqi4Eb8

I’m gonna make the hard call here….. are you ready??

Nothing…. None. Nada.

With the exception of a frankenhorn that may live out there somewhere, I don’t think that horn exists. To me, the MW 45/55 models don’t have even close to the tight, centered tone and ‘feel’. That to me is a big word when talking about the 186 horns. They have a VERY distinct feel and response that I’ve only really felt in a couple other rotor horns. There’s a reason those horns have a spot in so many peoples hearts.