Eb vs F tuba in an orchestra to the tubists ears

Tubas, euphoniums, mouthpieces, and anything music-related.
Forum rules
This section is for posts that are directly related to performance, performers, or equipment. Social issues are allowed, as long as they are directly related to those categories. If you see a post that you cannot respond to with respect and courtesy, we ask that you do not respond at all.

Can you smell that Eb

Yea
8
29%
Nope
18
64%
Yes and I’m angry about it
2
7%
 
Total votes: 28

cthuba
Posts: 90
Joined: Mon Aug 23, 2021 3:26 pm
Has thanked: 9 times
Been thanked: 26 times

Eb vs F tuba in an orchestra to the tubists ears

Post by cthuba »

So.. this is speaking generally to the audience member tubist being that they are either listening to a recording, or sitting with a live audience. Can you all tell whether a tubist is playing an Eb or F tuba as their bass instrument. Asking as someone who only wants to own three tubas tops-

A big ol’ contrabass

My Bruckner

Some kind of smaller fun to play bass tuba that can be used for solo work, quintet (if needed) and orchestra for the higher range pieces.

Lately I’ve been playing on an Eb and had forgotten how much I enjoy playing them. I’d want a smaller bell Eb 4-5 valve version.


User avatar
LeMark
Site Admin
Posts: 2848
Joined: Wed Aug 12, 2020 8:03 am
Location: Arlington TX
Has thanked: 77 times
Been thanked: 822 times

Re: Eb vs F tuba in an orchestra to the tubists ears

Post by LeMark »

It Depends. I think a classic Besson Eb is going to have a distinctive presence, but a miraphone Norwegian star might sound closer to a 184 or a large F.
Yep, I'm Mark
User avatar
bloke
Mid South Music
Posts: 19515
Joined: Thu Aug 13, 2020 8:55 am
Location: western Tennessee - near Memphis
Has thanked: 3919 times
Been thanked: 4173 times

Re: Eb vs F tuba in an orchestra to the tubists ears

Post by bloke »

The problem is that most of the in-tune E-flat tubas’ (some of those which are top-action) sounds bounces off the back of the shell. 😐😉

Bruckner 4…??
F tuba, unless someone is seeking a nice open (usually, quite sharp - whether B-flat or C tuba) double low C (or omit it, as in some editions). 😬

Bruckner 7…??
not F tuba (not even so-called “6/4” F tubas).
opus37
Posts: 13
Joined: Thu Aug 27, 2020 7:53 am
Location: Minnesota
Has thanked: 0
Been thanked: 0

Re: Eb vs F tuba in an orchestra to the tubists ears

Post by opus37 »

I play Eb for band and quintet. My Eb of choice for band is a Kanstil 66t. Nice round full sound that can keep up to a small band. If paired with a BBb player, I can play the upper parts and add a new dimension to the band sound and we can handle a medium sized band. Polkas are more interesting with the high part being played. For quintet I play a Miraphone Starlight. The brighter character of this horn really shines in quintet or solo work.
Brian
Woodbury, MN

1892 Courtiere (J.W. Pepper Import) Helicon Eb
1980's Yamaha 321 euphonium
2007 Miraphone 383 Starlight
2010 Kanstul 66T
2016 Bubbie Mark 5
User avatar
Casca Grossa
Posts: 338
Joined: Thu Aug 13, 2020 11:06 am
Location: Reading, PA, United States
Has thanked: 251 times
Been thanked: 160 times

Re: Eb vs F tuba in an orchestra to the tubists ears

Post by Casca Grossa »

I have had a project in the shop for a while now that I am hoping comes out nice. I have two old, Cerveny stenciled, 4 rotary valve Eb tubas that will become one 5 valve Eb. They are both small tubas that look very similar to my Miraphone 184. Intonation in the low end is a bit funky and needs a 5th valve at least. Otherwise, both horns have a super easy and powerful low end and nimble upper range. The sound is more like a small f tuba. I'm really looking forward to the competion of this project. The donor horns didn't cost me much so I think I should be pleasantly surprised no matter the outcome. The horn as is would probably make it difficult for the listener to determine whether it is in Eb or F. It definitely has enough power to carry in a full orchestral setting.
Mirafone 184 CC
Blokepiece Imperial
Soon to be 5 valve Lignatone/Amati Eb
Blokepiece Solo
York-aholic
Posts: 1450
Joined: Thu Aug 13, 2020 10:39 pm
Location: SoCal
Has thanked: 1590 times
Been thanked: 474 times

Re: Eb vs F tuba in an orchestra to the tubists ears

Post by York-aholic »

Casca Grossa wrote: Mon Oct 17, 2022 8:49 am I have had a project in the shop for a while now that I am hoping comes out nice. I have two old, Cerveny stenciled, 4 rotary valve Eb tubas that will become one 5 valve Eb. They are both small tubas that look very similar to my Miraphone 184. Intonation in the low end is a bit funky and needs a 5th valve at least. Otherwise, both horns have a super easy and powerful low end and nimble upper range. The sound is more like a small f tuba. I'm really looking forward to the competion of this project. The donor horns didn't cost me much so I think I should be pleasantly surprised no matter the outcome. The horn as is would probably make it difficult for the listener to determine whether it is in Eb or F. It definitely has enough power to carry in a full orchestral setting.
4+4=5 ? Huh, I'm confused...

:huh:
Some old Yorks, Martins, and perhaps a King rotary valved CC
User avatar
UncleBeer
Posts: 527
Joined: Thu Aug 13, 2020 8:37 am
Has thanked: 64 times
Been thanked: 285 times

Re: Eb vs F tuba in an orchestra to the tubists ears

Post by UncleBeer »

To my ears, there's a substantial difference in the amount of fundamental produced between Eb and F tubas. F tubas just sound like the alto voice to me; not suitable for providing the bass role. While Eb doesn't compare to CC in that respect, it provides a more credible case than F.
These users thanked the author UncleBeer for the post:
windshieldbug (Mon Oct 17, 2022 8:13 pm)
User avatar
Mary Ann
Posts: 3064
Joined: Thu Aug 13, 2020 9:24 am
Has thanked: 526 times
Been thanked: 602 times

Re: Eb vs F tuba in an orchestra to the tubists ears

Post by Mary Ann »

This ^^. Pretty much what I would write. Fs also "play more differently" than Ebs do, compared to contrabasses, and they still have an easy high range.
User avatar
jtm
Posts: 1112
Joined: Sat Aug 15, 2020 2:51 pm
Location: Austin, Texas
Has thanked: 712 times
Been thanked: 210 times

Re: Eb vs F tuba in an orchestra to the tubists ears

Post by jtm »

Are the differences in sound and playing due to more than just the difference in length? Are most Eb tubas intended to have more of a contrabass voice, to intentionally contrast with the way F tubas are used?
Last edited by jtm on Fri Sep 01, 2023 11:12 pm, edited 1 time in total.
John Morris
This practicing trick actually seems to be working!
playing some old German rotary tubas for free
User avatar
Snake Charmer
Posts: 152
Joined: Sat Aug 22, 2020 8:49 am
Location: Schifferstadt, Germany
Has thanked: 0
Been thanked: 69 times

Re: Eb vs F tuba in an orchestra to the tubists ears

Post by Snake Charmer »

It would be interesting to test the change in a F tuba when fitted with a longer main tuning slide and valve slides pulled for playing in Eb. I have a C/Bb saxhorn (tuning slide insert) which totally changes character in the two tunings. The same I had when I lowered the pitch of my tenor guitar a half step for playing a duet with a flute in a perfect easy key. It sounded completely different. (I play normally it a whole step lower than standard - Bb tenor guitar!)
:tuba: ...with a song in my heart!
User avatar
Casca Grossa
Posts: 338
Joined: Thu Aug 13, 2020 11:06 am
Location: Reading, PA, United States
Has thanked: 251 times
Been thanked: 160 times

Re: Eb vs F tuba in an orchestra to the tubists ears

Post by Casca Grossa »

York-aholic wrote: Mon Oct 17, 2022 12:31 pm
Casca Grossa wrote: Mon Oct 17, 2022 8:49 am I have had a project in the shop for a while now that I am hoping comes out nice. I have two old, Cerveny stenciled, 4 rotary valve Eb tubas that will become one 5 valve Eb. They are both small tubas that look very similar to my Miraphone 184. Intonation in the low end is a bit funky and needs a 5th valve at least. Otherwise, both horns have a super easy and powerful low end and nimble upper range. The sound is more like a small f tuba. I'm really looking forward to the competion of this project. The donor horns didn't cost me much so I think I should be pleasantly surprised no matter the outcome. The horn as is would probably make it difficult for the listener to determine whether it is in Eb or F. It definitely has enough power to carry in a full orchestral setting.
4+4=5 ? Huh, I'm confused...

:huh:
8 valve Eb? Maybe I should try it.
Mirafone 184 CC
Blokepiece Imperial
Soon to be 5 valve Lignatone/Amati Eb
Blokepiece Solo
York-aholic
Posts: 1450
Joined: Thu Aug 13, 2020 10:39 pm
Location: SoCal
Has thanked: 1590 times
Been thanked: 474 times

Re: Eb vs F tuba in an orchestra to the tubists ears

Post by York-aholic »

How many valves did Dr. Young’s tuba have?

It must have been pretty heavy.
Some old Yorks, Martins, and perhaps a King rotary valved CC
Tubeast
Posts: 184
Joined: Wed Jun 15, 2022 3:05 pm
Has thanked: 10 times
Been thanked: 46 times

Re: Eb vs F tuba in an orchestra to the tubists ears

Post by Tubeast »

In my whereabouts, I experienced the benefits of a duo of excellent Eb and BBb teaming up in a wind ensemble.
The instruments were one Willson rotary BBb and an old Besson Eb (exact Type unknown), in the hands of very well trained teenage players.

These guys would strategically divide parts among them.

When it came to super low and loud playing, notes between contra-Eb down to subcontra-B were often assigned to the Eb guy, who would just shake the stage using his pedal register. The BBb-person would just assist to facilitate breathing in those cases.
The latter guy´s places to shine were at contra-E and above as well as subcontra-Bb and below, when the stuffiness of the compensated Eb would kick in.

Their teamwork concerning phrasing was something to behold, either.
At passages of crescendos and all kinds of other situations there were elaborate markings as to who would pause when for breath and who would play a technical phrase on his own in order to enhance clarity out front. Lots of good ideas to pick up...

These people used mouthpieces to match tone colour of bass and contrabass tuba as much as possible, which is within reach for a team of Eb and BBb or CC, but rather not for F and a contrabass tuba.
User avatar
Thomas
Posts: 16
Joined: Fri Nov 12, 2021 5:47 am
Has thanked: 6 times
Been thanked: 4 times

Re: Eb vs F tuba in an orchestra to the tubists ears

Post by Thomas »

I experienced the same benefits while being part of such a duo in our regional amateur symphonic wind orchestra 15-20 years ago.
I had the BBb part (New Standard Besson 3+1 comp 17" bell, DW 1XL) and my colleague did the Eb part (Besson Sovereign, 19", DW3). That was the perfect match for all div. parts (fourth, fifth and octaves) and we knew blindly who could take which part better. We still meet from time to time, he is now a community band conductor.

Regarding the topic, for wind bands the F-Tuba alone is not the right tool for all pieces if not supported by a contrabass tuba or at least a contrabass. Whereas I suppose a modern 19" Eb to be very suitable. But in general wind bands require more than one tuba.

In my current orchestra I am the one to switch to F for special occasions/pieces of music and my colleague takes the BBb part. Our last church concert was 50/50 BBb/BBb and BBb/F, both classic german style rotary instruments.
User avatar
TheDoctor
Posts: 78
Joined: Thu Aug 20, 2020 7:35 pm
Location: Earth
Has thanked: 8 times
Been thanked: 21 times

Re: Eb vs F tuba in an orchestra to the tubists ears

Post by TheDoctor »

Naw, F and Eb are sonically close enough. Pickup whatever you have the best chops (or find the best deal) on! :tuba:
Wibbly wobbly, tubaly woobaly . . . stuff
User avatar
Doc
Posts: 2473
Joined: Thu Aug 13, 2020 9:48 am
Location: Downtown Browntown
Has thanked: 848 times
Been thanked: 768 times
Contact:

Re: Eb vs F tuba in an orchestra to the tubists ears

Post by Doc »

It seems to me that the design of the instrument might have as much or more to do with sound perception in the audience as difference in length.

Do you agree or disagree:

A 2250 sounds more similar to a 981 than it does a Symphonie or PT (or more like a small CC). Conversely, a Norwegian Star sounds more like a Symphonie or PT than it does a 981.

Or put another way:

A 2250 could pass (aurally) for an Eb (or maybe a small CC), and a NS could pass for an F. Yes? No?
These users thanked the author Doc for the post:
LargeTuba (Thu Oct 20, 2022 10:57 pm)
Welcome to Browntown!
Home of the Brown Note!
User avatar
Snake Charmer
Posts: 152
Joined: Sat Aug 22, 2020 8:49 am
Location: Schifferstadt, Germany
Has thanked: 0
Been thanked: 69 times

Re: Eb vs F tuba in an orchestra to the tubists ears

Post by Snake Charmer »

it seems to me that the design of the instrument might have as much or more to do with sound perception in the audience as difference in length.
:clap:
The rest is the player. In the right hands even a smallish F can sound bigger than a more-than-average-sized contrabass tuba with an average player
:tuba: ...with a song in my heart!
User avatar
TheDoctor
Posts: 78
Joined: Thu Aug 20, 2020 7:35 pm
Location: Earth
Has thanked: 8 times
Been thanked: 21 times

Re: Eb vs F tuba in an orchestra to the tubists ears

Post by TheDoctor »

Snake Charmer wrote: Fri Oct 21, 2022 12:06 am
it seems to me that the design of the instrument might have as much or more to do with sound perception in the audience as difference in length.
:clap:
The rest is the player. In the right hands even a smallish F can sound bigger than a more-than-average-sized contrabass tuba with an average player
On a similar note, a big EEb bass can "sing" like a nimble f tuba in the right hands
Wibbly wobbly, tubaly woobaly . . . stuff
User avatar
bloke
Mid South Music
Posts: 19515
Joined: Thu Aug 13, 2020 8:55 am
Location: western Tennessee - near Memphis
Has thanked: 3919 times
Been thanked: 4173 times

Re: Eb vs F tuba in an orchestra to the tubists ears

Post by bloke »

music director:

tuba
These users thanked the author bloke for the post:
Doc (Fri Oct 21, 2022 11:50 pm)
User avatar
TheDoctor
Posts: 78
Joined: Thu Aug 20, 2020 7:35 pm
Location: Earth
Has thanked: 8 times
Been thanked: 21 times

Re: Eb vs F tuba in an orchestra to the tubists ears

Post by TheDoctor »

bloke wrote: Fri Oct 21, 2022 8:28 pm music director:

tuba
Also music director:
"TUBAS!" :gaah: :wall:
These users thanked the author TheDoctor for the post:
Doc (Fri Oct 21, 2022 11:50 pm)
Wibbly wobbly, tubaly woobaly . . . stuff
Post Reply