Eb vs F tuba in an orchestra to the tubists ears

[cthuba]

So.. this is speaking generally to the audience member tubist being that they are either listening to a recording, or sitting with a live audience. Can you all tell whether a tubist is playing an Eb or F tuba as their bass instrument. Asking as someone who only wants to own three tubas tops-

A big ol’ contrabass

My Bruckner

Some kind of smaller fun to play bass tuba that can be used for solo work, quintet (if needed) and orchestra for the higher range pieces.

Lately I’ve been playing on an Eb and had forgotten how much I enjoy playing them. I’d want a smaller bell Eb 4-5 valve version.

[LeMark]

It Depends. I think a classic Besson Eb is going to have a distinctive presence, but a miraphone Norwegian star might sound closer to a 184 or a large F.

[bloke]

The problem is that most of the in-tune E-flat tubas’ (some of those which are top-action) sounds bounces off the back of the shell.

Bruckner 4…??
F tuba, unless someone is seeking a nice open (usually, quite sharp - whether B-flat or C tuba) double low C (or omit it, as in some editions).

Bruckner 7…??
not F tuba (not even so-called “6/4” F tubas).

[opus37]

I play Eb for band and quintet. My Eb of choice for band is a Kanstil 66t. Nice round full sound that can keep up to a small band. If paired with a BBb player, I can play the upper parts and add a new dimension to the band sound and we can handle a medium sized band. Polkas are more interesting with the high part being played. For quintet I play a Miraphone Starlight. The brighter character of this horn really shines in quintet or solo work.

[Casca Grossa]

I have had a project in the shop for a while now that I am hoping comes out nice. I have two old, Cerveny stenciled, 4 rotary valve Eb tubas that will become one 5 valve Eb. They are both small tubas that look very similar to my Miraphone 184. Intonation in the low end is a bit funky and needs a 5th valve at least. Otherwise, both horns have a super easy and powerful low end and nimble upper range. The sound is more like a small f tuba. I'm really looking forward to the competion of this project. The donor horns didn't cost me much so I think I should be pleasantly surprised no matter the outcome. The horn as is would probably make it difficult for the listener to determine whether it is in Eb or F. It definitely has enough power to carry in a full orchestral setting.

[York-aholic]

I have had a project in the shop for a while now that I am hoping comes out nice. I have two old, Cerveny stenciled, 4 rotary valve Eb tubas that will become one 5 valve Eb. They are both small tubas that look very similar to my Miraphone 184. Intonation in the low end is a bit funky and needs a 5th valve at least. Otherwise, both horns have a super easy and powerful low end and nimble upper range. The sound is more like a small f tuba. I'm really looking forward to the competion of this project. The donor horns didn't cost me much so I think I should be pleasantly surprised no matter the outcome. The horn as is would probably make it difficult for the listener to determine whether it is in Eb or F. It definitely has enough power to carry in a full orchestral setting.

4+4=5 ? Huh, I'm confused...

[UncleBeer]

To my ears, there's a substantial difference in the amount of fundamental produced between Eb and F tubas. F tubas just sound like the alto voice to me; not suitable for providing the bass role. While Eb doesn't compare to CC in that respect, it provides a more credible case than F.

[Mary Ann]

This ^^. Pretty much what I would write. Fs also "play more differently" than Ebs do, compared to contrabasses, and they still have an easy high range.

[jtm]

Are the differences in sound and playing due to more than just the difference in length? Are most Eb tubas intended to have more of a contrabass voice, to intentionally contrast with the way F tubas are used?

[Snake Charmer]

It would be interesting to test the change in a F tuba when fitted with a longer main tuning slide and valve slides pulled for playing in Eb. I have a C/Bb saxhorn (tuning slide insert) which totally changes character in the two tunings. The same I had when I lowered the pitch of my tenor guitar a half step for playing a duet with a flute in a perfect easy key. It sounded completely different. (I play normally it a whole step lower than standard - Bb tenor guitar!)

[Casca Grossa]

I have had a project in the shop for a while now that I am hoping comes out nice. I have two old, Cerveny stenciled, 4 rotary valve Eb tubas that will become one 5 valve Eb. They are both small tubas that look very similar to my Miraphone 184. Intonation in the low end is a bit funky and needs a 5th valve at least. Otherwise, both horns have a super easy and powerful low end and nimble upper range. The sound is more like a small f tuba. I'm really looking forward to the competion of this project. The donor horns didn't cost me much so I think I should be pleasantly surprised no matter the outcome. The horn as is would probably make it difficult for the listener to determine whether it is in Eb or F. It definitely has enough power to carry in a full orchestral setting.

4+4=5 ? Huh, I'm confused...

8 valve Eb? Maybe I should try it.

[York-aholic]

How many valves did Dr. Young’s tuba have?

It must have been pretty heavy.

[Tubeast]

In my whereabouts, I experienced the benefits of a duo of excellent Eb and BBb teaming up in a wind ensemble.
The instruments were one Willson rotary BBb and an old Besson Eb (exact Type unknown), in the hands of very well trained teenage players.

These guys would strategically divide parts among them.

When it came to super low and loud playing, notes between contra-Eb down to subcontra-B were often assigned to the Eb guy, who would just shake the stage using his pedal register. The BBb-person would just assist to facilitate breathing in those cases.
The latter guy´s places to shine were at contra-E and above as well as subcontra-Bb and below, when the stuffiness of the compensated Eb would kick in.

Their teamwork concerning phrasing was something to behold, either.
At passages of crescendos and all kinds of other situations there were elaborate markings as to who would pause when for breath and who would play a technical phrase on his own in order to enhance clarity out front. Lots of good ideas to pick up...

These people used mouthpieces to match tone colour of bass and contrabass tuba as much as possible, which is within reach for a team of Eb and BBb or CC, but rather not for F and a contrabass tuba.

[Thomas]

I experienced the same benefits while being part of such a duo in our regional amateur symphonic wind orchestra 15-20 years ago.
I had the BBb part (New Standard Besson 3+1 comp 17" bell, DW 1XL) and my colleague did the Eb part (Besson Sovereign, 19", DW3). That was the perfect match for all div. parts (fourth, fifth and octaves) and we knew blindly who could take which part better. We still meet from time to time, he is now a community band conductor.

Regarding the topic, for wind bands the F-Tuba alone is not the right tool for all pieces if not supported by a contrabass tuba or at least a contrabass. Whereas I suppose a modern 19" Eb to be very suitable. But in general wind bands require more than one tuba.

In my current orchestra I am the one to switch to F for special occasions/pieces of music and my colleague takes the BBb part. Our last church concert was 50/50 BBb/BBb and BBb/F, both classic german style rotary instruments.

[TheDoctor]

Naw, F and Eb are sonically close enough. Pickup whatever you have the best chops (or find the best deal) on!

[Doc]

It seems to me that the design of the instrument might have as much or more to do with sound perception in the audience as difference in length.

Do you agree or disagree:

A 2250 sounds more similar to a 981 than it does a Symphonie or PT (or more like a small CC). Conversely, a Norwegian Star sounds more like a Symphonie or PT than it does a 981.

Or put another way:

A 2250 could pass (aurally) for an Eb (or maybe a small CC), and a NS could pass for an F. Yes? No?

[Snake Charmer]

it seems to me that the design of the instrument might have as much or more to do with sound perception in the audience as difference in length.

The rest is the player. In the right hands even a smallish F can sound bigger than a more-than-average-sized contrabass tuba with an average player

[TheDoctor]

it seems to me that the design of the instrument might have as much or more to do with sound perception in the audience as difference in length.

The rest is the player. In the right hands even a smallish F can sound bigger than a more-than-average-sized contrabass tuba with an average player

On a similar note, a big EEb bass can "sing" like a nimble f tuba in the right hands

[bloke]

music director:

tuba

[TheDoctor]

music director:

tuba

Also music director:
"TUBAS!"